Thursday, November 10, 2005

Christian Greatness

Now I thought I would follow up the article Christian Fascist with an article of an opposite title. Not sure what the opposite of fascism is I'll stick with greatness. Also this is not primarily restricted to Christians but being Ireland it mainly concerns Catholics

Now a days we hear all the bad things about the church. From the Ferns Report to how the catholic church held back Ireland in the early years of the state. Yet this country success is built on the Catholic Church. Well maybe not the church( the hierarchy have a lot to answer for) but the footsoliders. The local nuns brothers and to a lesser extent the priests that gave all their time to educating youngsters. Lay teachers simply can not give and have not given the time that church can and have. Lay teachers have kids husbands, wives, mortgages etc to worry about. The church teachers only have to worry about their pupils. The class room is their world. They often help kids with after school lessons if they need them for free. What Bertie said was right we owe a debt of gratitude to the church. Maybe not the bishops and the people who live in the palaces and covered up abuse but the real church people the local nuns and brothers who ran the schools and thought generations.

Colm O'Gorman, the director of the abuse victims' organization 'One in Four' said Mr Ahern's comments were ill timed and poorly judged. and that he could only assume that the Taoiseach 'has either not yet read the Ferns Report or has yet to grasp its significance'.

Maybe what Mr O'Gorman is missing it that not every religious person sinned. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. Would it be right to say all Irish people should be guilty of the IRA bombings No. Neither is saying that the ordinary nuns brothers and priests should be punished for the acts of the evil (including bishops who covered it up here).

Liz O'Donnell in what I can only guess is an attempt to get her back in the limelight after being pushed aside for what I think was Tom Parlon. Saying "That also meant no longer accepting the good offices of the hierarchy because she said their track record was such that it could not be assumed they would be truthful". If she wants to transfer that logic to the government maybe we shouldn't trust the government as some previous ministers proved dishonest. But I'm sure she would say times have changed CJH has left government can now be trusted etc. If you wanted then to transfer that logic back to the church. Then you defeat her argument as the hierarchy has changed there to. So Ms O'Donnell this ridiculous statement is not going to revive you career. We need to use the Ferns report to correct the mistakes of the past and move on. Not to settle old grievances like this

Update: I have to say I want to clarify my view on this. I am not disputing the role that the church has in education is wrong. It should not have a say in the governing of schools. But I do see the benifit the Church has given to education in this state through the dedication of the nuns and brothers that gave their lives to teaching students and while we can do nothing but condemn the acts of the priests in Ferns we can not tar the decent clergy with the same brush. Also in the comments I was a little harsh.

11 comments:

ainelivia said...

"we owe a debt of gratitude to the church".

Without the "faithful" the church would not exist. Without our money, and willing compliance to follow the church, (whose authority comes from God)they argue, therefore cannot be questioned. - When was the last time anyone had a debate with God? - So we remained silent while these priests, brothers and nuns abused physically, mentally, and emotionally generations of Irish children. We as a people, colluded with the abusers through silence.

GRATITUDE????????

Is Ireland the only place in the world where DENIAL is a river in Egypt?

Simon said...

So are you saying that every single priest abused.

Are you saying that people don't have a right to follow the church if they want to or that they don't have the right to give money to it.

I think you are the one suffering from DENIAL as you so lovingly put it. Denail that even up on you moral anti-church horse you know that the education system in this country is and even more so in the past NOTHING without the input of the church.

Just because it is now fasionable to bash the catholic church doesn't mean people have to ignorant of what they did for us.

Im don't believe in god or follow any church but I'm not as blinded by this anti-clerical bullshit in this country. Like any profession there are rotten eggs. Yet for some reason with the church people seem to over look the vast majority of fresh eggs.

Why because this season victorian blouses and catholic church bashing is in vogue.

ainelivia said...

The Irish Church is entrusted with the education, care and protection of the young people of this country. This trust has been betrayed. The Catholic Church by it's silence and refusal to acknowledge these abuses, how many years has this taken? is guilty. If it were an individual, and not this powerful organisation, it would have been done and dusted a long time ago. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

I do believe in God, however I cannot trust an organisation that hid the offenders, silenced the abused and refuses to acknowledge it's wrong doing.

"Do unto others", if there is no trust in the insititution and it's religious, what's next?

The feelings I have expressed here have nothing to do with fashion, and much to do with personal experience. The Church is not a profession, had it been a profession, it's governing body would have been forced to take action a long time ago.

Abuse is abuse, if the organisation responsible did not take action to put a stop to the abuse, indeed took steps to hide and protect the abusers, then they are as guilty as the abusers. This has nothing to do with fashion and everything to do with personal morality, personal responsibility and integrity. The system abused and hid that abuse.

Simon said...

firstly
"The Church is not a profession"
To me it is the people who do get get monetary benifit for doing it so to me a profession.

The probablm witht the church is like i said in the article is the hierarchcy that commited the silence sin. but the ordinary footsoliders are the ones that keep the education system going.

on another note Is it not very strange that a person who believes in god is critising the church and someone who doesn't believe is defending it. this would never happen on fox news :)

Auds said...

I agree with the saint who doesn't believe in God (am I right in inferring that from these comments)
"the church" is us ordinary people - according to Vatican II.
While the sins of one affect the communion of saints (and all that theological biz!) ainelivia, "we" did not collude with the abusers through silence. Certain people in the hierachy who were clueless as to what to do and seemed to have forgotten basic Christian virtue created a silence.
The rest of us heard nothing.

ainelivia said...

Assuming that Saint and Auds are probably younger than I, tell me of one person, any one, who spoke out about abuse in Irish Schools, Industrial Schools, Orphanages, since let's say 1940?

One name please.

Simon said...

Who has spoken out about political corruption. Are you trying to say that every person knew that abuse were happening. they did not it was kept secret from the majority of the clergy.

If they all knew someone would have spoken out. you can't blame everyone for a fews evil crimes. By your logic every Irish person is guilty of omagh bombing. yet i doubt any of us knew about it until it happened.You can't blame qroup of people for something that a few members of that group did.

I, tell me of one person, any one, who spoke out about abuse in Irish Schools, Industrial Schools, Orphanages, since let's say 1940?
I hate to be a padantic asshole but if you want one name . use your own as you have spoken out about it. since 1940
I have spoken out about it (calling in evil.)everyone has. But to speak out against and forget the good they have done and will do is lunacy

ainelivia said...

Ok, why do you persist in this bullying rant. You are almost apopletic with rage. And yet what have I said?? You wnat to shout me down, drown me out. You appear to have a need to annihilate my voice and only have yours heard. I'm not telling you, that you are wrong. I'm saying that there are several ways to look at this.

Where does that type of behaviour ( which is unnecessary in adult debate and belongs in the playground) emanate from. Our behaviours are the result of how we were treated as children. Much of the manner in which Irish children were raised was most definitely abusive. Who were responsible for that, the parents and the teachers. And the parents before them. But the information about such painful and humilitating treatment is suppressed and emerges in, over the top anger and rage.

"...fear of their own deeply ingrained aggression that can only strike a blow at each other, not having the innate authority to strike at those who are higher. ...pity for a people reluctant to admit that there is anything wrong". Edna O'Brien in Mother Ireland (1976).

My view is valid and maybe yours is valid too. Stop trying to silence that which you do not agree with or apparently understand.

Simon said...

" Stop trying to silence that which you do not agree with or apparently understand."
I am not trying to silence you if i was i would delete your comments so i don't know where you are getting that idea.

You are the one who first came out shouting in the first post.
with
"GRATITUDE????????"
in capital letters

Also with my "I hate to be a padantic asshole" comment i was trying to be funny. But you did not state a timeline possibly you should have said pre 90s. Im a pedantic person by nature.

Also
"You are almost apopletic with rage."
where are you getting that from.

"Our behaviours are the result of how we were treated as children. Much of the manner in which Irish children were raised was most definitely abusive. Who were responsible for that, the parents and the teachers. And the parents before them. But the information about such painful and humilitating treatment is suppressed and emerges in, over the top anger and rage."

I have been civil through out this debate and then you seem to insinuate that my parents abused me.

I mean this is a debate. As Sluggerotoole says play the ball not the player. Please leave my family out of this.

Simon said...

i posted a reply over on your own blog.
http://ainelivia.typepad.com/aine_livia_at_the_midnigh/2005/11/disappointed.html#comment-11243211
which i'll copy here
Don't forget abuse happens in non-relgious schools as well (i heard of a case in monahgan a few weeks ago). The issue is not intirly the catholic church it is the culture of silence in this country as you pointed out. If we become solely focused at the church we miss the fact that abuse is all over society in homes in sports clubs everywhere and needs to be tackeled.
If control of schools is moved from the clergy abuse is not going to stop. It instead is going to be carried out by lay people. I don't believe it is a solution. The solution needs to be better then some kneejerk reation of removing the church from the eductaion sector. We owe it to all people and kids that were and are being abused.

ainelivia said...

Hallo Simon, thanks for commenting on my blog, and I have responded to you there too.